Curse

4ssassin · Dec 05, 2006, 09:16 AM // 09:16

@ terra. im not saying its going to "unbalance" the game, i just think its rather pointless. and id bet you a gp to a plat that if this happens, crossbows and polearms ARE next...which is even more pointless. quick, lets all go do pointless things with Anets money. like this junk, rather than letting them put it towards new areas,servers, and skill balances. GG.

freekedoutfish · Dec 05, 2006, 09:51 AM // 09:51

It wouldnt make sense, because Assassins are fast moving, and use fast actions and attacks.

If they used swords, whether they be large or small, you would have to take into consideration their attack speed.

Swords obviously cant move as fast as a dagger or small blade. It would take longer to swing a sword. Even a slim one.

You would be reducing your Assassin to nothing more then a warrior, and leaving them vulnerable to attacks as they swing their sword.

It just wouldnt fit into the Sin build.

freekedoutfish · Dec 05, 2006, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by TABellis

Apparently the idea of making the second dagger an actual offhand is a closed minded topic. Should not be done and everyone that has created a game with duel weild should really never have done that because that was just wrong of them.

I dont have anything against this idea of allowing Sin's to mix and match daggers. Sounds fine to me.

But you do have to take into consideration that if your using two seperate daggers, with independant stats on one character, then you would have to set their stats carefully.

For instance;

Daggers have a max of 7-17, so if you have two seperate daggers, does that mean the dmg is then 14-23?

I doubt it, but its an issue, because your holding two weapons with their own dmg amounts. Does the game know to just use one, or does it combine them? If its only going to use one, then why state the dmg lvl on the other?

My suggestion would be to a choice;

Either have a pair of daggers as we do now.

Or have a seperate weapon dagger and focus dagger (one holds the dmg stats, while the other holds the energy stats).

But I would see that being the kind of thing they introduce in the next campaign, because your talking about creating ALOT of new weapon types, not just skins.

TABellis · Dec 06, 2006, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I dont have anything against this idea of allowing Sin's to mix and match daggers. Sounds fine to me.

But you do have to take into consideration that if your using two seperate daggers, with independant stats on one character, then you would have to set their stats carefully.

For instance;

Daggers have a max of 7-17, so if you have two seperate daggers, does that mean the dmg is then 14-23?

I doubt it, but its an issue, because your holding two weapons with their own dmg amounts. Does the game know to just use one, or does it combine them? If its only going to use one, then why state the dmg lvl on the other?

My suggestion would be to a choice;

Either have a pair of daggers as we do now.

Or have a seperate weapon dagger and focus dagger (one holds the dmg stats, while the other holds the energy stats).

But I would see that being the kind of thing they introduce in the next campaign, because your talking about creating ALOT of new weapon types, not just skins.

I see what you are saying, I've defenately thought this through. Need to reread my posts.

See, the dagger system Anet already has setup, works. What would change is that the daggers would become seperated in to 2 daggers, one in main hand and one in offhand spots in invantory. The only real difference that we would notice is:
1: the skins may be different depending on preference
2: dmg type (exp: Slash/pierce), +eng would stack
3: % longer conditions would stack if different than each other.
Everything else about the dagger system would stay the same. Damage would not change as we already hit with one hand at a time when we don't double strike.

Now I do Understand that +eng, and % longer condition on each dagger would be unbalanced compaired to other 2 handed weapons, but my real point here is that daggers aren't 2 handed weapons, they are 1 handed weapons in each hand, Anet just has them set up as 2 handed weapons.
I just think they should be seperated, not a set, which would mean they could have 2 different types of mods depending on preference.

About the focus setup idea, this would make the second dagger more of an item not a weapon. That's what focus items are already, so I feel this would not be proper, unless it was a perring blade, which would ack excalty like a focus item, but this is not the point of 2 daggers.

Siren · Dec 06, 2006, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by TABellis

I just think they should be seperated, not a set, which would mean they could have 2 different types of mods depending on preference.

Wait...if I'm understanding this correctly...having the daggers separate means they could have two different types of mods depending on the user's preference...but yet you've already admitted that the potential for +energy and 20% condition mods can be...overpowered/imbalanced. So why not just take that to the next logical step? I mean, if it's so obvious that +energy and a "set" of daggers that can extend both Cripple and Daze (+20% Cripple from one dagger, +20% Daze from the other), and give the user a possible extra 5E total...why wouldn't the other mod options also be just as imbalanced? What about a pair of daggers using Ebon and Vampiric? If the user were to outfit both daggers with +1/20, doesn't that seem just a little bit overpowered? With your suggestion, the following becomes possible:

Vampiric dagger of Fortitude with slashing damage and +15/-5E and Ebon dagger of Fortitude with +5E always.

And if the secondary mods won't stack, just plug in a +defense vs physical in one dagger, and a +defense in the other to see how imbalanced it would be.

Or what about Crippling Dagger of Dagger Mastery (15^50) with a Silencing Dagger of Enchanting (+15% while enchanted)?

Separating paired daggers into independent primary and off-hands can only be to expand user options when selecting daggers, but as anyone can see, when those options are evaluated, it becomes clear such a separation is game-breaking in terms of balance. The separation is broken if the mods stack, and the separation becomes utterly broken when the player begins "branching out" his or her dagger mods.

Morgenstern · Dec 06, 2006, 08:25 AM // 08:25

/notsigned, but I'm digging the ninja star idea. They could be a completly new type of item!! I like it

Deleet · Dec 06, 2006, 12:26 PM // 12:26

DaggerS

TABellis · Dec 06, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Wait...if I'm understanding this correctly...having the daggers separate means they could have two different types of mods depending on the user's preference...but yet you've already admitted that the potential for +energy and 20% condition mods can be...overpowered/imbalanced. So why not just take that to the next logical step? I mean, if it's so obvious that +energy and a "set" of daggers that can extend both Cripple and Daze (+20% Cripple from one dagger, +20% Daze from the other), and give the user a possible extra 5E total...why wouldn't the other mod options also be just as imbalanced? What about a pair of daggers using Ebon and Vampiric? If the user were to outfit both daggers with +1/20, doesn't that seem just a little bit overpowered? With your suggestion, the following becomes possible:

Vampiric dagger of Fortitude with slashing damage and +15/-5E and Ebon dagger of Fortitude with +5E always.

And if the secondary mods won't stack, just plug in a +defense vs physical in one dagger, and a +defense in the other to see how imbalanced it would be.

Or what about Crippling Dagger of Dagger Mastery (15^50) with a Silencing Dagger of Enchanting (+15% while enchanted)?

Separating paired daggers into independent primary and off-hands can only be to expand user options when selecting daggers, but as anyone can see, when those options are evaluated, it becomes clear such a separation is game-breaking in terms of balance. The separation is broken if the mods stack, and the separation becomes utterly broken when the player begins "branching out" his or her dagger mods.

Now I see what your saying, but you can look at it this way (and I will admit that this somewhat becomes unfair/unbalanced for actual 2 handed weapons, but only slightly, you still have to remember that they ARE 2 handed weapons); Example: a sword and a shield, depending on how you have it set up, the shield will do no dmg, but will deflect an amount of dmg, and with that will give you +20-60hp, and % less conditions/or other wise, this is a benifit that 2 handed weapons certanly do not have, the HP stack with the sword hps, and the mods also stack depending on the mods. This right now is not over powering. A similar idea for a Sword and a focus, no extra dmg from focus, but you have the option now of having +12-15 eng, +5 armor, +30-45 hp, all of which stack with the sword mods giving a large amount of HP and eng, which is viewed as not over powering, yet 2 handed weapons certanly will not give you a very large amount of eng, unless you have a staff. The same Idea would count for assassins, the second dagger would become the off hand giving either +5 eng which can stack with main dagger, +20-30hp which stack with main dagger, The dmg would not change as the daggers already hit one at a time, unless a double strike is hit, dmg would stay normal, the only difference with dmg would be each dagger would have its own dmg modifier depending on preference, instead of both daggers having the exact same modifiers for dmg, which is what it is now, and even this would not change if the 2 daggers were exactly the same. Like I said before the only changes would be that certen mods would stack, the % longer conditions would not stack but you can have 2 types. This idea, if you think it over, and understand what I am saying would not unbalance the game, it would just make actual 2 handed weapons seem much more like 2 handed weapons which I have already shown is setup that way right now when campaird to sword/shield(focus), and 1 handed weapons will act like 1 handed weapons. With this change, you could only put daggers with daggers, they would not be able to be combined with sword/axe/wand, focus/shield.

taskumatti · Dec 06, 2006, 11:07 PM // 23:07

if it is so important to have 2 different looking daggers, or some dagger+sword combination... plz, get WoW or somthing... <.<

TABellis · Dec 07, 2006, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by taskumatti

if it is so important to have 2 different looking daggers, or some dagger+sword combination... plz, get WoW or somthing... <.<

It's a debate and an idea, it has nothing to do with being so important, that is up to Anet to judge.

If you don't like the idea, you can either /notsign, or give a real reason why, there is no need to be rude, and closed minded.

Siren · Dec 07, 2006, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by TABellis

Example: a sword and a shield, depending on how you have it set up, the shield will do no dmg, but will deflect an amount of dmg, and with that will give you +20-60hp, and % less conditions/or other wise, this is a benifit that 2 handed weapons certanly do not have, the HP stack with the sword hps, and the mods also stack depending on the mods. This right now is not over powering.

I'm having trouble seeing how pointing to a sword/shield combo is proper here. The shield grants the wearer extra armor based on either Strength or Tactics; that extra armor is conditional (unlike having two independent +defense dagger handles). The extra health is also largely conditional, barring a few rare exceptions (again, totally unlike the Fort dagger handle in the first place). The damage deflection, also largely conditional with a few rare exceptions (Assassins shouldn't even be trying to take damage reduction mods if their goal is to pop-kill). With the new insignia system, armor itself now can have condition duration reduction, which has effectively eliminated the need for such mods on shields.

Most of what you're referring to here isn't overpowered because most of it is conditional. The +60 hp is usually only active when you're hexed, as is the -3 damage received mod. I can't think of many +health shield mods that aren't conditional in some way.

See, the major problem in advocating such a change is that assassins should never be using their daggers as defensive tools, just like how an assassin should never, ever remain exposed enough to where the situation would warrant taking a shield. Assassins are designed as fast killers that gank stragglers. Their armor is paper-thin. They're not supposed to remain in harm's way for too long. That's what warriors are supposed to do, hence why warriors have shields. An entire attribute line in the warrior is pretty much devoted to uber-defense, usually utilizing a shield. You don't see that in an assassin for a reason. Assassins have a set of daggers because they aren't supposed to have much defense. They're glass cannons. Putting a shield on an assassin is like giving a sword to a ritualist: it defeats the purpose of why you play the character.

The focus thing relates to why you play a certain character. If you see a warrior using a caster focus, it's usually because that warrior is playing a weird build that requires the extra energy. If they're using a traditional warrior build, however, they're going to need to be able to take as much damage as possible, which is where we see the shields come into play. We're looking at the traditional warrior roles here versus the traditional assassin roles.

And in those respective roles, there's always a method to the madness, so to speak, when it comes to what weapons and off-hands each character will be using. You see shields on warriors because that's a major part of what that character needs to be able to do: soak up damage. You see assassins shadow stepping around with nothing more than paper armor and two tiny daggers because that's what that character needs to be able to do: quick kills.

Quote:

Like I said before the only changes would be that certen mods would stack, the % longer conditions would not stack but you can have 2 types.

Like what mods? +Health? +Energy? +Armor? Only energy should remotely matter to an assassin using daggers. And even then, a solid sin build should have just enough energy to get in, combo, and get out, so I'm having trouble seeing how any of this makes sense.

Quote:

This idea, if you think it over, and understand what I am saying would not unbalance the game

If people are able to stack two different condition mods, then it would unbalance the game. You could be looking at the lead dagger having an enhanced cripple duration (Leaping Mantis Sting is a lead attack), and then the off-hand having a Silencing mod to increase Dazed (Temple Strike off-hand). That is imbalanced. If people are able to bust out a Vamp dagger in one hand, and an Ebon dagger in the other, you're looking at really nasty damage that can devastate just about anything. That is imbalanced.

lyra_song · Dec 07, 2006, 05:17 AM // 05:17

I really still dont see the motivation as to WHY making such a change would be justified?

The only REAL change in weaponry that an Assassin needs is a weapon based on DEADLY ARTS.

Adding more stats to the weapons of an assassin via an "offhand" dagger would require INCREASING the power of the two handed daggers vs the one handed daggers.

Some Guru Named Kai · Dec 07, 2006, 05:44 AM // 05:44

While we're at it, let's give assassins a wooden staff, some numchucks(sp?), dual katanas, and turn their capes into a turtle shell. We can have our own TMNT!

(For anyone that took that seriously, take a short jump off a high cliff.

)

EDIT: P.S. Doesn't the assassin already have a skill that throws shurikens? (ninja stars)

Gorebrex · Dec 08, 2006, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by TABellis

Apparently the idea of making the second dagger an actual offhand is a closed minded topic. Should not be done and everyone that has created a game with duel weild should really never have done that because that was just wrong of them.

Those are different games, with different balances, and Im sure that(as has been said before) ANet wants to keep GW balanced, so that theres no "Uberclass". If there was, why would anyone play something else?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TE=FelixCarter

...Or how about a tasty weapon for the Assassin? Like a donut. A really deadly donut with like sharp edges. Like... A jelly-filled donut... And the jelly is poison. And like, the sprinkles can be little blades. It can be for like Deadly Arts or something. That's one hell of a donut, I'd say. Wouldn't want to eat it but... Whoa, watch out when you see it flying at your face.

ROFL!

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixCarter

Assassins need a skill where they throw a Shuriken at their opponent, jump on top of it, and punch their opponent in the face just as it stabs them, killing them instantly (make it do like 5,000,000K dmg or something).

Also, they should have a skill where they attach a string to every hair in the opponent's body, and then rip it all out at once. The look on people's faces would be priceless.

See this vid, Whammo(note use of Mending) vs 4 A/Es